Discussion:
[pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?
Eero Volotinen
2016-08-03 07:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.

Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?

--
Eero
Peder Rovelstad
2016-08-03 12:03:53 UTC
Permalink
If my old hardware died today, I might get one of these. Or go virtual.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856205007


-----Original Message-----
From: List [mailto:list-***@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Eero
Volotinen
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 2:37 AM
To: pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List <***@lists.pfsense.org>
Subject: [pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?

Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.

Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?

--
Eero
Eero Volotinen
2016-08-03 12:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Does this look good:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/XCY-Mini-PC-J1900-with-4-LAN-port-using-pfsense-as-small-router-firewall-fanless-PC/32694972050.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.7.M55nl4&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_7,searchweb201602_5_10057_10056_10055_10049_10059_10058_10017_405_404_10060_10061_10062_412,searchweb201603_2&btsid=fffddf79-e2d3-471d-a595-20e06e8226c8

Eero
Post by Peder Rovelstad
If my old hardware died today, I might get one of these. Or go virtual.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856205007
-----Original Message-----
Volotinen
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 2:37 AM
Subject: [pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.
Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
--
Eero
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Ryan Coleman
2016-08-03 12:38:16 UTC
Permalink
I second this product. Using it at home. VPN works great to my main servers 100 miles away. Tested local throughput in VPN to about 850Mbps. For USD200 it is a great product. I purchased mine through Amazon in April. Only hiccup I had was needing a VGA monitor to configure it. :)
Post by Eero Volotinen
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/XCY-Mini-PC-J1900-with-4-LAN-port-using-pfsense-as-small-router-firewall-fanless-PC/32694972050.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.7.M55nl4&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_7,searchweb201602_5_10057_10056_10055_10049_10059_10058_10017_405_404_10060_10061_10062_412,searchweb201603_2&btsid=fffddf79-e2d3-471d-a595-20e06e8226c8
Eero
Post by Peder Rovelstad
If my old hardware died today, I might get one of these. Or go virtual.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856205007
-----Original Message-----
Volotinen
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 2:37 AM
Subject: [pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.
Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
--
Eero
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
John Martinez
2016-08-03 12:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Third vote. Same box, slightly different config, upgraded drive just in case. Love it.
Post by Ryan Coleman
I second this product. Using it at home. VPN works great to my main servers 100 miles away. Tested local throughput in VPN to about 850Mbps. For USD200 it is a great product. I purchased mine through Amazon in April. Only hiccup I had was needing a VGA monitor to configure it. :)
Post by Eero Volotinen
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/XCY-Mini-PC-J1900-with-4-LAN-port-using-pfsense-as-small-router-firewall-fanless-PC/32694972050.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.7.M55nl4&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_7,searchweb201602_5_10057_10056_10055_10049_10059_10058_10017_405_404_10060_10061_10062_412,searchweb201603_2&btsid=fffddf79-e2d3-471d-a595-20e06e8226c8
Eero
Post by Peder Rovelstad
If my old hardware died today, I might get one of these. Or go virtual.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856205007
-----Original Message-----
Volotinen
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 2:37 AM
Subject: [pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.
Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
--
Eero
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Vick Khera
2016-08-03 14:05:45 UTC
Permalink
My home office is protected by a Netgate APU box (which it seems they
have replaced with some other device at the low end now). It is a
little pricey, but they offer great support and it supports the
project in the best way.
Post by Eero Volotinen
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.
Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
--
Eero
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Robert Obrinsky
2016-08-03 15:15:51 UTC
Permalink
I am currently using a refurb HP Elite 8200 SFF that I bought through
Newegg. I removed the video card so I could use the built-in video and
added 2 dual port HP gigabit NICs (Intels in reality) from Amazon. It
came with 4 GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive, and Core I-5 processor at 3.3
GHz. Very quiet. Upgraded the RAM to 8 GB.


Robert Obrinsky President Robert Obrinsky Industries, LLC 1908 SE 45th
Avenue Portland, OR 97215 Office 503.719.4387 Mobile 503.752.8489
http://www.roillc.com
Post by Eero Volotinen
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.
Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
--
Eero
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
r***@ultra-secure.de
2016-08-03 15:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Obrinsky
I am currently using a refurb HP Elite 8200 SFF that I bought through
Newegg. I removed the video card so I could use the built-in video and
added 2 dual port HP gigabit NICs (Intels in reality) from Amazon. It
came with 4 GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive, and Core I-5 processor at 3.3
GHz. Very quiet. Upgraded the RAM to 8 GB.
How much energy does that thing consume then?

Because it runs all year 24x7, for years sometimes, it can make a huge
difference buying a smaller and less power-hungry device.

AFAIK, the SG-devices are quite frugal in that respect.
Robert Obrinsky
2016-08-03 22:27:44 UTC
Permalink
I put a Kill-a-Watt meter on it and measured it. During boot-up, it
spiked around 58 watts. After settling down at boot, it seems to run
consistently at 32-34 watts. Processor utilization rarely exceeds 6%. I
run different firewall software but am running a web proxy with AV,
snort, intermittent site-to-site VPNs when I need to connect to client
sites for troubleshooting, SSL and L2TP remote access protocols.

I did have a problem with the on-board Intel NIC - could not handle
heavy packet loads and would stop responding. Never figured out if it
was a hardware problem or software problem with that particular model
(Intel Corporation 82579LM Gigabit Network Connection) as opposed to the
dual port cards (Intel Corporation 82571EB Gigabit Ethernet Controller)
which have been working well.

In my case, I am willing to accept the power utilization for the
flexibility to load just about any of the open source firewalls onto it.
Post by r***@ultra-secure.de
Post by Robert Obrinsky
I am currently using a refurb HP Elite 8200 SFF that I bought through
Newegg. I removed the video card so I could use the built-in video and
added 2 dual port HP gigabit NICs (Intels in reality) from Amazon. It
came with 4 GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive, and Core I-5 processor at 3.3
GHz. Very quiet. Upgraded the RAM to 8 GB.
How much energy does that thing consume then?
Because it runs all year 24x7, for years sometimes, it can make a huge
difference buying a smaller and less power-hungry device.
AFAIK, the SG-devices are quite frugal in that respect.
Jim Thompson
2016-08-04 01:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Here's all you need to know:

1) we only test releases on the hardware we sell, or have sold in the past
two years. (Obviously doesn't include VM images.)

We don't intentionally break anything, but your J1900 box isn't in the test
matrix, nor will it ever be. That said, we have included
fixes for hardware that we'll never ship. The i217s on recent Intel NUCs
is one example.

2) Many people are employed making pfSense. Appliance sales make up the
largest part of the revenue that keeps them employed working on pfSense.

If you want to support the project and make pfSense better, you’re welcome
to submit bugs or develop fixes. If you’re not a developer but want to
support the project, you can always purchase a Gold Subscription"

3) At the ram densities involved, ECC isn't going to buy you much. If we
were doing storage, the story would be different, but given the relative
error rates of Ethernet and non-ECC RAM, you're unlikely to ever detect a
bit error. Those of you still running on CF or "SD Cards" should worry
about your storage, not ECC ram.

We could have put ECC on the RCC-VE boards, and chose not to. There isn't
a good reason for raising the cost (and therefore price).

4) Your enthusiasm for your j1900 box is understood, but this is the
pfsense list.

You're a guest. Be nice.

Jim
Ryan Coleman
2016-08-04 01:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Jim,

I realize that - I’ve purchased thousands of dollars of your branded equipment to be installed at my corporate customer sites. However I find them lacking in some regards and have moved on to buying other hardware.

If you wanted to sell just your hardware to support the system you’d find a way to make it closed environment. Instead the system is open platform.

We’re guests, as is the pfSense product in our homes and business.

We are nice. We praise the product.

I simply find the cost for the hardware and the functionality of it beyond what I can personally purchase for small businesses that cannot even afford to buy the equipment themselves.

Ryan
Post by Jim Thompson
1) we only test releases on the hardware we sell, or have sold in the past
two years. (Obviously doesn't include VM images.)
We don't intentionally break anything, but your J1900 box isn't in the test
matrix, nor will it ever be. That said, we have included
fixes for hardware that we'll never ship. The i217s on recent Intel NUCs
is one example.
2) Many people are employed making pfSense. Appliance sales make up the
largest part of the revenue that keeps them employed working on pfSense.
If you want to support the project and make pfSense better, you’re welcome
to submit bugs or develop fixes. If you’re not a developer but want to
support the project, you can always purchase a Gold Subscription"
3) At the ram densities involved, ECC isn't going to buy you much. If we
were doing storage, the story would be different, but given the relative
error rates of Ethernet and non-ECC RAM, you're unlikely to ever detect a
bit error. Those of you still running on CF or "SD Cards" should worry
about your storage, not ECC ram.
We could have put ECC on the RCC-VE boards, and chose not to. There isn't
a good reason for raising the cost (and therefore price).
4) Your enthusiasm for your j1900 box is understood, but this is the
pfsense list.
You're a guest. Be nice.
Jim
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Ryan Coleman
2016-08-04 01:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Correction. Instead the system is ON an open-SOURCE platform.
Post by Ryan Coleman
Instead the system is open platform.
Jim Thompson
2016-08-04 01:59:52 UTC
Permalink
My response was not directed at you, Ryan.
Post by Ryan Coleman
Correction. Instead the system is ON an open-SOURCE platform.
Post by Ryan Coleman
Instead the system is open platform.
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Ryan Coleman
2016-08-04 03:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Ahh, well, it’s hard to tell when you don’t give a name but a blanket response without a quoted email.
Post by Jim Thompson
My response was not directed at you, Ryan.
Post by Ryan Coleman
Correction. Instead the system is ON an open-SOURCE platform.
Post by Ryan Coleman
Instead the system is open platform.
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Moshe Katz
2016-08-04 02:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Jim,

As a long-time member of this list, a former contributor (and hopefully
future contributor again once my work allows), and a major proponent of
pfSense any time I hear anyone talking about purchasing new firewalls (I
even wrote a paper back in college about using and contributing back to
pfSense), I have to say that I was a bit taken aback by the tone of your
last post.

While no one (that I know of) denies that supporting the company by buying
appliances is a great way to make sure the project keeps going and a way to
say thanks for the great work that you do, I seem to recall that one of the
old major selling points of pfSense was that you could run it on just about
any hardware. In fact, for many home and small business users (less than 30
machines with up to 75Mbps Internet connections) for whom I have set up
pfSense, I have done the setup using only old components scavenged from
computers that the home or business was retiring because they were too slow
to run Windows. All of those machines are still running, except for one
which got fried by a lightning hit. Additionally, all of those machines,
including at least one old Pentium 4, are performing well enough to max out
whatever Internet connection the entity is paying for.

I highly recommend purchasing branded pfSense hardware for business use and
faster Internet speeds (a wholehearted and unreserved recommendation
despite having never done so myself), but the pfSense *software project* has
a long history of use with non-branded hardware which has been discussed
and supported by the community on this list many times in the past.

Maybe I'm reading too much into points 1 (second paragraph) and 4 of your
message, but it sounds somewhat hostile to the old use-your-own-hardware
selling point that brought me into the pfSense community ten years ago in
the first place.

Moshe

--
Moshe Katz
-- ***@ymkatz.net
-- +1(301)867-3732
Post by Jim Thompson
1) we only test releases on the hardware we sell, or have sold in the past
two years. (Obviously doesn't include VM images.)
We don't intentionally break anything, but your J1900 box isn't in the test
matrix, nor will it ever be. That said, we have included
fixes for hardware that we'll never ship. The i217s on recent Intel NUCs
is one example.
2) Many people are employed making pfSense. Appliance sales make up the
largest part of the revenue that keeps them employed working on pfSense.
If you want to support the project and make pfSense better, you’re welcome
to submit bugs or develop fixes. If you’re not a developer but want to
support the project, you can always purchase a Gold Subscription"
3) At the ram densities involved, ECC isn't going to buy you much. If we
were doing storage, the story would be different, but given the relative
error rates of Ethernet and non-ECC RAM, you're unlikely to ever detect a
bit error. Those of you still running on CF or "SD Cards" should worry
about your storage, not ECC ram.
We could have put ECC on the RCC-VE boards, and chose not to. There isn't
a good reason for raising the cost (and therefore price).
4) Your enthusiasm for your j1900 box is understood, but this is the
pfsense list.
You're a guest. Be nice.
Jim
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Jim Thompson
2016-08-04 11:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Maybe I'm reading too much into points 1 (second paragraph) and 4 of your message, but it sounds somewhat hostile to the old use-your-own-hardware selling point that brought me into the pfSense community ten years ago in the first place.
Moshe,

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate your reaching out. I think that perhaps you are over-reading my response.

Use-your-own hardware (if you want) is still a key point of pfSense, and it's not changing, even though I get challenged frequently on same both inside and outside the company.

I've literally had people (outside the company) challenge me during the past 24 hours that there is "no barrier to entry" for people entering the market to sell appliances based on pfSense software (typically on Amazon or eBay).

This is truth.

We carry on anyway.

Personally, I think pfSense has gotten a lot better during the past several years as we've been able to bring dedicated professional staff to bear on the process of keeping up to date with our upstream project(s), rather than lagging by several years. All the changes to the toolchain to support this remain open source.

Case in point: 2.4 snapshots will begin shortly, based on FreeBSD 11, which is not yet in release candidate form. MPD and captive portal don't work, but these will be fixed before 2.4-release. The captive portal work will serve to decrease our technical debt, due to the elimination of several patches found in pfSense that will never be upstreamed, and are not up to our standards of quality. 2.4 will also bring the ARM architecture to pfSense. We've also moved to bsdinstall, which means that ZFS is an option during install. Moving from PBI to pkg-ng as part of 2.3 enabled this work. This move included a huge improvement in the build tools to be a lot more like those found in FreeBSD. Work in this area continues.

Past efforts to improve both FreeBSD and pfSense include bringing AES-GCM to IPsec. Work continues on making the stack faster and better, see our paper, Measurement and Improvement of a software based IPsec implementation to be given at Eurobsdcon next month.
https://2016.eurobsdcon.org/speakers/ (this effort is a pre-requisite to making QAT work at speed.)

The entire FreeBSD community (including various forks of pfSense) benefits from these efforts, just as the entire pfSense community benefits both from these efforts as well as those of outside collaborators like BBCan117 (pfblockerNG) or Denny Page (dpinger, bringing the NUT package back to 2.3+) or Bill Meeks (Snort and Suricatta) or Phil Davis (space does not allow me to begin to enumerate Phil's contributions) or even Kill Bill/doktornotor. I hesitate mentioning these because I have left many others out, and I do not mean to slight their efforts by not mentioning them.

All of it, every single piece, is under a liberal open source license.

But it remains true that there would not be a project but for the core developers and core contributors. We preferentially employ FreeBSD committers to work on pfSense. This has always been true. Running the project takes funds.

- Donations don't work, and we ask that anyone who wants to donate to pfSense instead donate to the FreeBSD Foundation.
- Support does not scale.
- Appliance sales do.

I am not blocking BYOH, nor have I made any plans to do so. I'm not hostile to it at all, Moshe.

This said, people selling appliances based on pfSense *who do not otherwise contribute to pfSense* (or worse, who work against pfSense), are not part of the solution.

Applianceshop/Deciso, and every one of their "opnsense" partners still also offer pfSense on the same appliances. None of them contribute to pfSense, all are willing to see it destroyed. I do not endorse or support these companies and individuals.

Any number of parties on eBay and Amazon (and elsewhere) sell pfSense appliances, but none of them contribute to pfSense or FreeBSD. I don't block these, though I do insist that they correctly use our trademarks. That said, I do not endorse or support these parties, as they do not participate in the project or upstream, while freely availing themselves of our efforts.

Companies as large as VMware, Cisco and Avaya have forks or components of pfSense as part of their product set. None of them contribute to pfSense or FreeBSD. We are approached several times per week by companies large and small, almost always with a one-way deal.

In every healthy relationship there is an exchange of value where each party gets something out of the exchange, even if it is relatively small. This can be a deliberate exchange, or it can be embedded in social interaction and conversation.

Value may be a perception of benefit, rather than something material. It may or may not be quantifiable and it may be highly valued or of limited value. It may also be unconsciously rather than consciously assessed.

A critical aspect of value exchange is that each side is content with what they are getting relative to what they are giving. The underlying principle that makes this work is that of barter, where people have a surfeit of some things (and thus value them less), and exchange them for things they want or need (which they value more).

A common social value exchange involves some combination of information, affirming relationship and soothing of troubles. The classic retail and business value exchange is money for goods and services.

Open source is no different, there are sill value exchanges that must exist. All sides must be content with the exchange.

I look forward to your response.

Jim
Bob Gustafson
2016-08-04 12:53:33 UTC
Permalink
+1
Post by Jim Thompson
Open source is no different, there are sill value exchanges that must exist. All sides must be content with the exchange.
I look forward to your response.
Jim
Moshe Katz
2016-08-04 14:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Jim,

I have to say that I agree with everything that you wrote. I am no stranger
to the problems and concerns that plague funding of open-source software,
and to the one-sided expectation of many (perhaps even most) users.

My original concern was merely about implications of the particular
message, and I'm glad to find that I was reading too much into those words.

I look forward to continuing to support pfSense with my participation and,
in the future, purchases when the opportunity presents itself for me to do
so.


Moshe

--
Moshe Katz
-- ***@ymkatz.net
-- +1(301)867-3732
Post by Moshe Katz
Maybe I'm reading too much into points 1 (second paragraph) and 4 of
your message, but it sounds somewhat hostile to the old
use-your-own-hardware selling point that brought me into the pfSense
community ten years ago in the first place.
Moshe,
Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate your reaching out. I think that
perhaps you are over-reading my response.
Use-your-own hardware (if you want) is still a key point of pfSense, and
it's not changing, even though I get challenged frequently on same both
inside and outside the company.
I've literally had people (outside the company) challenge me during the
past 24 hours that there is "no barrier to entry" for people entering the
market to sell appliances based on pfSense software (typically on Amazon or
eBay).
This is truth.
We carry on anyway.
Personally, I think pfSense has gotten a lot better during the past
several years as we've been able to bring dedicated professional staff to
bear on the process of keeping up to date with our upstream project(s),
rather than lagging by several years. All the changes to the toolchain to
support this remain open source.
Case in point: 2.4 snapshots will begin shortly, based on FreeBSD 11,
which is not yet in release candidate form. MPD and captive portal don't
work, but these will be fixed before 2.4-release. The captive portal work
will serve to decrease our technical debt, due to the elimination of
several patches found in pfSense that will never be upstreamed, and are not
up to our standards of quality. 2.4 will also bring the ARM architecture
to pfSense. We've also moved to bsdinstall, which means that ZFS is an
option during install. Moving from PBI to pkg-ng as part of 2.3 enabled
this work. This move included a huge improvement in the build tools to be a
lot more like those found in FreeBSD. Work in this area continues.
Past efforts to improve both FreeBSD and pfSense include bringing AES-GCM
to IPsec. Work continues on making the stack faster and better, see our
paper, Measurement and Improvement of a software based IPsec implementation
to be given at Eurobsdcon next month.
https://2016.eurobsdcon.org/speakers/ (this effort is a pre-requisite to
making QAT work at speed.)
The entire FreeBSD community (including various forks of pfSense) benefits
from these efforts, just as the entire pfSense community benefits both from
these efforts as well as those of outside collaborators like BBCan117
(pfblockerNG) or Denny Page (dpinger, bringing the NUT package back to
2.3+) or Bill Meeks (Snort and Suricatta) or Phil Davis (space does not
allow me to begin to enumerate Phil's contributions) or even Kill
Bill/doktornotor. I hesitate mentioning these because I have left many
others out, and I do not mean to slight their efforts by not mentioning
them.
All of it, every single piece, is under a liberal open source license.
But it remains true that there would not be a project but for the core
developers and core contributors. We preferentially employ FreeBSD
committers to work on pfSense. This has always been true. Running the
project takes funds.
- Donations don't work, and we ask that anyone who wants to donate to
pfSense instead donate to the FreeBSD Foundation.
- Support does not scale.
- Appliance sales do.
I am not blocking BYOH, nor have I made any plans to do so. I'm not
hostile to it at all, Moshe.
This said, people selling appliances based on pfSense *who do not
otherwise contribute to pfSense* (or worse, who work against pfSense), are
not part of the solution.
Applianceshop/Deciso, and every one of their "opnsense" partners still
also offer pfSense on the same appliances. None of them contribute to
pfSense, all are willing to see it destroyed. I do not endorse or support
these companies and individuals.
Any number of parties on eBay and Amazon (and elsewhere) sell pfSense
appliances, but none of them contribute to pfSense or FreeBSD. I don't
block these, though I do insist that they correctly use our trademarks.
That said, I do not endorse or support these parties, as they do not
participate in the project or upstream, while freely availing themselves of
our efforts.
Companies as large as VMware, Cisco and Avaya have forks or components of
pfSense as part of their product set. None of them contribute to pfSense or
FreeBSD. We are approached several times per week by companies large and
small, almost always with a one-way deal.
In every healthy relationship there is an exchange of value where each
party gets something out of the exchange, even if it is relatively small.
This can be a deliberate exchange, or it can be embedded in social
interaction and conversation.
Value may be a perception of benefit, rather than something material. It
may or may not be quantifiable and it may be highly valued or of limited
value. It may also be unconsciously rather than consciously assessed.
A critical aspect of value exchange is that each side is content with what
they are getting relative to what they are giving. The underlying principle
that makes this work is that of barter, where people have a surfeit of some
things (and thus value them less), and exchange them for things they want
or need (which they value more).
A common social value exchange involves some combination of information,
affirming relationship and soothing of troubles. The classic retail and
business value exchange is money for goods and services.
Open source is no different, there are sill value exchanges that must
exist. All sides must be content with the exchange.
I look forward to your response.
Jim
_______________________________________________
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Steve Yates
2016-08-03 15:43:42 UTC
Permalink
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?

https://www.pfsense.org/products/

The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.

--

Steve Yates
ITS, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: List [mailto:list-***@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Eero Volotinen
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 2:37 AM
To: pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List <***@lists.pfsense.org>
Subject: [pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?

Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.

Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
Karl Fife
2016-08-03 15:58:05 UTC
Permalink
+1

You can buy the 'blessed' hardware alone (e.g. CentOS) from netgate for
$300 (2-port) and $350 (4-port). Cheaper than if you buy a
preconfigured pfSense appliance with support. Seems like REALLY
inexpensive insurance to be using vetted hardware that others are also
using. In general, I consider cheap networking gear to be a false economy.
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
--
Steve Yates
ITS, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 2:37 AM
Subject: [pfSense] looking for perfect pfsense box for home?
Any ideas where to find perfect pfsense box for home usage.
Must be cheap and silent? netgate device? shuttle box?
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Ryan Coleman
2016-08-03 16:00:29 UTC
Permalink
And there are many people on the list here who have vouched for the J1900 box mentioned earlier.

I am pretty sure we’ve vetted it; I know I have and I am going to start deploying it at customer sites over NetGate hardware.
+1
You can buy the 'blessed' hardware alone (e.g. CentOS) from netgate for $300 (2-port) and $350 (4-port). Cheaper than if you buy a preconfigured pfSense appliance with support. Seems like REALLY inexpensive insurance to be using vetted hardware that others are also using. In general, I consider cheap networking gear to be a false economy.
Karl Fife
2016-08-03 16:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Honestly that j1900 looks like a really great choice.

I think the right questions would be whether you can tolerate the VGA
console, whether it will cost more in terms of power consumption,
whether you need the AES-NI instructions. I was going to mention ECC
ram, but the netgate box appears to be Non-ECC :-(

Given the role and quantity of RAM, ECC would be a sensible choice IMO.
Post by Ryan Coleman
And there are many people on the list here who have vouched for the J1900 box mentioned earlier.
I am pretty sure we’ve vetted it; I know I have and I am going to start deploying it at customer sites over NetGate hardware.
+1
You can buy the 'blessed' hardware alone (e.g. CentOS) from netgate for $300 (2-port) and $350 (4-port). Cheaper than if you buy a preconfigured pfSense appliance with support. Seems like REALLY inexpensive insurance to be using vetted hardware that others are also using. In general, I consider cheap networking gear to be a false economy.
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Jeremy Bennett
2016-08-03 19:43:24 UTC
Permalink
I can only second what everyone else has said...

If cheap is 'best', grab any old box and throw some NICs in it. Downsides
of this approach are power consumption and the associated 'mostly works'
weirdness of used hardware.

I've found a 4 port j1900 board in a case with rack mount brackets that I
put an MSATA SSD and 4 GB of memory in. It lives in my 7U office/lab rack
and may be the best PFsense box I've ever built. It has a VGA and USB port
on the front if I ever need to get at it that way, and while I am unsure of
the power consumption, at $250ish, I'm very happy with it (I recently
installed the NUT package and now the PFsense box is even talking to my
UPS–thanks to this list!).

When it comes to work (or if I weren't inclined to assemble the system
mentioned above), I always specify products from netgate or pfsense,
because they 'just work' and the support is awesome.
Post by Karl Fife
Honestly that j1900 looks like a really great choice.
I think the right questions would be whether you can tolerate the VGA
console, whether it will cost more in terms of power consumption, whether
you need the AES-NI instructions. I was going to mention ECC ram, but the
netgate box appears to be Non-ECC :-(
Given the role and quantity of RAM, ECC would be a sensible choice IMO.
Post by Ryan Coleman
And there are many people on the list here who have vouched for the J1900
box mentioned earlier.
I am pretty sure we’ve vetted it; I know I have and I am going to start
deploying it at customer sites over NetGate hardware.
Post by Karl Fife
+1
You can buy the 'blessed' hardware alone (e.g. CentOS) from netgate for
$300 (2-port) and $350 (4-port). Cheaper than if you buy a preconfigured
pfSense appliance with support. Seems like REALLY inexpensive insurance to
be using vetted hardware that others are also using. In general, I
consider cheap networking gear to be a false economy.
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Ryan Coleman
2016-08-03 15:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Mine is footprint vs function. For $200 I have a box that takes up less room on the wall than the NetGate product and offers more functionality (the J1900 device mentioned earlier).

The SG-2220 is $100 more than I paid with half the ports.

I’ll pass.
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/ <https://www.pfsense.org/products/>
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
--
Steve Yates
ITS, Inc.
Dave Warren
2016-08-20 08:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00 is
the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
Jim Thompson
2016-08-20 11:02:04 UTC
Permalink
-- Jim
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00 is the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
You seem to have added $1000 without justification:

https://store.pfsense.org/SG-4860-1U/
Dave Warren
2016-08-21 06:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00 is the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
https://store.pfsense.org/SG-4860-1U/
Perhaps someone should put that on the https://pfsense.org/ website?

I started at https://pfsense.org/, then clicked on Products, which took
me to https://pfsense.org/products/ which only offers
https://store.pfsense.org/XG-2758/ when I was looking for a new product
a couple weeks ago. It didn't occur to me you would have multiple
incomplete lists of products, so I ordered hardware elsewhere already.
Shame, I'd rather have supported pfSense, but it's too late now.
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
Kendrick Vargas
2016-08-21 07:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Don't know how late I am to the game on this suggestion, but I am quite
happy with the Lanner Inc. product I bought. I was able to get them to sell
me a single unit, the cost was fine for my needs (at the time an Atom
D510). They're rackable, and my FW-7539 has been running non-stop for
years. I can't speak for performance as my needs are really simple.

http://www.lannerinc.com/products/x86-network-appliances/desktop/

Just make sure to get the components necessary to boot it up (you may need
vga adapters, etc.)


-peace
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using
pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and
it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one
adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the
long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00 is
the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
https://store.pfsense.org/SG-4860-1U/
Perhaps someone should put that on the https://pfsense.org/ website?
I started at https://pfsense.org/, then clicked on Products, which took
me to https://pfsense.org/products/ which only offers
https://store.pfsense.org/XG-2758/ when I was looking for a new product a
couple weeks ago. It didn't occur to me you would have multiple incomplete
lists of products, so I ordered hardware elsewhere already. Shame, I'd
rather have supported pfSense, but it's too late now.
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Eero Volotinen
2016-08-21 07:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Who is reselling lanner units in europe?

I just bought one lanner unit from china.it looks perfect for my home
usage..

Eero
Post by Kendrick Vargas
Don't know how late I am to the game on this suggestion, but I am quite
happy with the Lanner Inc. product I bought. I was able to get them to sell
me a single unit, the cost was fine for my needs (at the time an Atom
D510). They're rackable, and my FW-7539 has been running non-stop for
years. I can't speak for performance as my needs are really simple.
http://www.lannerinc.com/products/x86-network-appliances/desktop/
Just make sure to get the components necessary to boot it up (you may need
vga adapters, etc.)
-peace
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and
it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if
one
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Steve Yates
adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in
the
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Steve Yates
long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00
is
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Dave Warren
the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
https://store.pfsense.org/SG-4860-1U/
Perhaps someone should put that on the https://pfsense.org/ website?
I started at https://pfsense.org/, then clicked on Products, which took
me to https://pfsense.org/products/ which only offers
https://store.pfsense.org/XG-2758/ when I was looking for a new product
a
Post by Dave Warren
couple weeks ago. It didn't occur to me you would have multiple
incomplete
Post by Dave Warren
lists of products, so I ordered hardware elsewhere already. Shame, I'd
rather have supported pfSense, but it's too late now.
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
_______________________________________________
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
Paul Mather
2016-08-21 12:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00 is the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
https://store.pfsense.org/SG-4860-1U/
Perhaps someone should put that on the https://pfsense.org/ website?
Not to sound like an apologist or a shill for the pfSense project, but in the line just above the "Products" link that you presumably clicked on, right at the very top of the page, is a link labelled "Store". On the same line as the "Store" link is a "Partner Locator" link that goes to a page with a list of MSP, VAR, and Retail companies. That might have been a good place to find official pfSense hardware. :-)
Post by Dave Warren
I started at https://pfsense.org/, then clicked on Products, which took me to https://pfsense.org/products/ which only offers https://store.pfsense.org/XG-2758/ when I was looking for a new product a couple weeks ago. It didn't occur to me you would have multiple incomplete lists of products, so I ordered hardware elsewhere already.
Even on that page it's incorrect to say it "only" offers the XG-2758. That's the only one they show in the main table on that page (which presumably is only a "recommended selection" of what they offer, to avoid the table becoming overcrowded). If you click on the big red "PRODUCT FAMILY" link above that then you get a listing that includes the SG-4860-1U. Plus all of the "MORE DETAILS" links in the main table take you to the pfSense Store, where, presumably those curious would browse further (and see that they sell, e.g., high availability solutions).
Post by Dave Warren
Shame, I'd rather have supported pfSense, but it's too late now.
If you'd been keen on supporting the pfSense project then you'd have done well to read the "Official Product Comparison" section of the "Products" page you mention above. It talks about the benefits of supporting the project, but, moreover, contains obvious links to "The pfSense Store" and "pfSense Partner".

I guess you were in a big hurry when you ordered and missed reading that? ;-)

Cheers,

Paul.
Bret Busby
2016-08-21 15:02:46 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Paul Mather
Post by Dave Warren
I started at https://pfsense.org/, then clicked on Products, which took me
to https://pfsense.org/products/ which only offers
https://store.pfsense.org/XG-2758/ when I was looking for a new product a
couple weeks ago. It didn't occur to me you would have multiple incomplete
lists of products, so I ordered hardware elsewhere already.
Even on that page it's incorrect to say it "only" offers the XG-2758.
That's the only one they show in the main table on that page (which
presumably is only a "recommended selection" of what they offer, to avoid
the table becoming overcrowded). If you click on the big red "PRODUCT
FAMILY" link above that then you get a listing that includes the SG-4860-1U.
Plus all of the "MORE DETAILS" links in the main table take you to the
pfSense Store, where, presumably those curious would browse further (and see
that they sell, e.g., high availability solutions).
Post by Dave Warren
Shame, I'd rather have supported pfSense, but it's too late now.
If you'd been keen on supporting the pfSense project then you'd have done
well to read the "Official Product Comparison" section of the "Products"
page you mention above. It talks about the benefits of supporting the
project, but, moreover, contains obvious links to "The pfSense Store" and
"pfSense Partner".
I guess you were in a big hurry when you ordered and missed reading that? ;-)
Cheers,
Paul.
Thank you for that.

As a person who has just found this (trapped in gmail spam folder), in
going to the web page at
https://pfsense.org/products/https://pfsense.org/products/ , I found
the SG-2220 and SG-2440, and, as a WiFi add-on appears available (or,
I could buy locally, and, plug into an Ethernet port, an Ethernet/WiFi
router, like we have here, now, at one end of the house), I think that
I could use one of those (probably, the latter; the 2440, with the 4
LAN Ethernet ports), to replace our current firewall gateway computer
(for which, I have forgotten all of the passwords), when we are forced
to change from ADSL to what in Australia , is named the NBN, in a few
months time.

From what I understand, these devices come with pfsense pre-installed,
with the default settings, to implement

"
All incoming connections to WAN are blocked
All outgoing connections from LAN are allowed
"

which I understand to mean we can go out, from the LAN, but, people
trying to come in, from the WAN, are blocked, which is (to me) a good
starting point, that would probably (for our uses) not need adjusting.

And, I understand that these devices allow the preinstalled pfsense,
to be configured by the LAN administrator, using either command line
or GUI interfaces, so as to implement connection to a WAN modem, and,
to LAN clients (which may(?) be the only configuration needed, for a
simple but effective firewall for a small LAN with less than a dozen
clients).

And, at 299USD (?) and 499USD(?), respectively, they appear to me, to
be quite worthwhile.

If I am wrong, in any of my understandings, as mentioned here,
corrections would be welcome.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia

..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
Bryan D.
2016-08-21 20:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Even on that page it's incorrect to say it "only" offers the XG-2758. That's the only one they show in the main table on that page ...
There's likely good science behind the fact that nearly all e-stores will present (often overwhelming) detail, by default, along with various filters to narrow down the products of interest.

I've also experienced the "you have to make an effort to find it" aspect of the pfSense store pages. Not ideal. Sales will be lost, as this incident demonstrates.

Blaming a would-be customer for not seeing/finding something on a catalog/store/marketing page is probably not a good strategy as it won't help sales.
Peder Rovelstad
2016-08-21 20:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bryan D.
Blaming a would-be customer for not seeing/finding something on a
catalog/store/marketing page is probably not a good strategy as it won't
help sales.

I'd 'Like' this myself, but I don't have thumbs.
Paul Mather
2016-08-21 21:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bryan D.
Even on that page it's incorrect to say it "only" offers the XG-2758. That's the only one they show in the main table on that page ...
There's likely good science behind the fact that nearly all e-stores will present (often overwhelming) detail, by default, along with various filters to narrow down the products of interest.
I've also experienced the "you have to make an effort to find it" aspect of the pfSense store pages. Not ideal. Sales will be lost, as this incident demonstrates.
Blaming a would-be customer for not seeing/finding something on a catalog/store/marketing page is probably not a good strategy as it won't help sales.
I'm not blaming any customer for anything, and, in case I wasn't overly clear when I said, "Not to sound like an apologist or a shill for the pfSense project", I don't work for nor am I in any way affiliated with the pfSense Store except that I am a prior customer (who figured out how to use their Web site).

I'll refrain from further comment on this topic as it appears to be veering into the more heat than light category.

Cheers,

Paul.
Dave Warren
2016-08-22 02:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Not to sound like an apologist or a shill for the pfSense project, but in the line just above the "Products" link that you presumably clicked on, right at the very top of the page, is a link labelled "Store". On the same line as the "Store" link is a "Partner Locator" link that goes to a page with a list of MSP, VAR, and Retail companies. That might have been a good place to find official pfSense hardware.:-)
Perhaps. But when I went to the product comparison page, I found none
were even close to what I need; it's not that I wasn't aware of the
store, but rather, there was no reason to visit the store to look at
products that I wasn't going to buy.

If /products is intended to be an overview, why not replace the specific
model entries with categories that show the ranges of prices and
capabilities, and change the "More Details" buttons to link to products
within those families? Or at least give some clue that there are other
offerings in some obvious way.

Even so, I'm not sure it would have mattered, 799USD is still a lot for
what it is; I spent under 100CAD on a 1U server from eBay that will
probably do more than I'll need for the immediate future. I'll probably
just buy Gold and call it a day.
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
WebDawg
2016-08-21 23:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Dave Warren
Post by Steve Yates
I'm being serious but what is your rationale for not using
pfSense's/NetGate's?
https://www.pfsense.org/products/
The "cheap" part (< $299)? We tried a "build our own" approach and it's
tough to get a small package. Any old PC will do just fine if one adds an
SSD but as someone pointed out that may use far more power in the long run.
For me, it's the fact that I want to rackmount my gear, but $1,799.00 is
the cheapest option offered on pfSense.org that can rackmount.
https://store.pfsense.org/SG-4860-1U/
Perhaps someone should put that on the https://pfsense.org/ website?
I started at https://pfsense.org/, then clicked on Products, which took me
to https://pfsense.org/products/ which only offers
https://store.pfsense.org/XG-2758/ when I was looking for a new product a
couple weeks ago. It didn't occur to me you would have multiple incomplete
lists of products, so I ordered hardware elsewhere already. Shame, I'd
rather have supported pfSense, but it's too late now.
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
I noticed that too last time I went to purchase hardware from the
pfSense store. I like this link better:

https://store.pfsense.org/

If you click into the menu on the left it lets you sort and such.

I think the first page right off the main site is designed to help
people who know little about the offerings to get an overview.
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